R.I.P. Beekeepers... Was that really necessary, Devs?

[Fiasco]

Note: I feel like I should be late to the game on this honey topic, considering that it happened nearly a week ago, but I don't see any other posts about it.

So, yeah, Devs, was it really necessary to discourage what few new-to-intermediate players this game has by absolutely obliterating their simplest means of making money? I'd be curious to hear some explanation beyond "The price of honey has been decreased" in the patch notes. That sounded fairly benign until you went to sell your honey and realized that it's worth roughly 1/10 of what it was before. Isn't that a tad harsh? It's not as if every fresh-off-the-boat alt could exploit this for easy money - it takes a fair amount time and effort to get a character to that point. Further, I never had the impression that the advanced players were using this as a means of making money either (and the lack of posts would seem to confirm that). I'm just not seeing where this was some widespread exploit, worthy of being nuked to the point of being now effectively useless.

From my own perspective, the initial appeal of this game was that it could be played without a major time investment... Little did I know, huh? Up to now, I hadn't really followed the convention of having a "main", so the most advanced of my five characters is still just short of reaching Den, while the newest just reached Lanfar. At times, it's already a strain logging in multiple times per-day, per-character just to keep them busy. The apparent demise of beekeeping now has me facing either trying to play the whims of the public market and/or doing regular dungeon grinds just to maintain a positive cash-flow. Those just aren't viable options for a game that already has me questioning my time investment.

[Coastis]

The short version is... Yes, it was necessary.

Beekeeping was way out of synch compared to other early game money makers and takes very little effort to set up, after which it was just a case of logging in once a day for a few minutes to collect your earnings. Now that is has been nerfed people will actually have to craft and contribute to the game, and thus it provides a stimulus to the economy.

I will however say that the extent to which it was nerfed does seem a little harsh, i feel perhaps 1/4 of the original price would have been more appropriate.

On a personal note, if you're at the point of almost accessing the den then you have many other forms of money making open to you. Consumables are a great earner for the newer player, and those with lanfar access can craft all of the best selling health & regen potions, which will sell out within hours of being listed on the market and also require little more than logging in for 5 minutes each day to setup ques (once the initial setup work is done). Selling lanfar resources is also highly profitable and can be gathered with your companions whilst your hero does other things.

With the upgrades available in the game shop most chars only take a few minutes each day to setup 24+ hours of work, so it's great for those of us with little time to play, and for those times when we have more time available, there is plenty to take a more active role in.

[Laerities/Volund]

I couldn't agree anymore with Coastis. Very well said.

Here are some other ways to earn coins.. Buy NPC items and resell.. Make blades/chisels and sell them.. Ahhh cut up bears.. Cut planks (oak/cedar sell fairly well).. Make Slate/marl towers (Also really good money) these all require hawkoria access and im sure I am missing more.. So you could make alts who do this all day or you can do it in the meantime to make gold. Hell if you tell experienced players you are looking for work im sure they will pay you for your time (or I would.. Normally).


Don't forget to set up passive gathers.. In Hawkoria you can do this at quite a few places with NPC bought mats from Hawkoria.. There are plenty of methods that don't actually add gold into the game but resources.


Again awesome job Coastis.

Cheers,
Laerities

[Sniq]

Nerf-ing honey price is necessary because the amount of gold generated in the game was too much. You can feel the inflation in the last few months. However, the price of honey should be reduced to the level similar to what an alt can make by working on a 4g gold task.

Here's a comparison of amount of golds one can "generate" passively before and after v1.20 (The setting is, sleeping 5 hrs per day, with 125 energy after 10 cycles of sleep)

(A) Full-time producing honey:
With 8 companions gathering bees and the hero processing bees into honey, the character can produce about 240x honey+wax a day.
Before 1.20: 240 * (0.83 + 0.0063) ~= 201g
After 1.20: 240 * (0.0912 + 0.0063) ~= 23.4g

Note: This calculation does not take into consideration of the followings:
(a) The value of goldendart honey and goldendart.
(b) Hero has to spend some time gathering bees once every few days because 8 companions cannot gather enough bees to be processed by the hero.


(B) Full-time working on gold tasks:
Working for 16-17hr on a 4g gold task at Praen's farm, the character can generate about 64-68g.
Working for 16-17hr on a 4.8g gold task at Maliken Pen, the character can generate about 76-80g per day.

Note: The character can make (but not generate) additional golds by selling to other players items gathered by the companions.


So if the developers don't see the need to remove the gold tasks from the game, perhaps they should keep the value of honey at about 30s so that players working on a gold task and players producing honey can make about the "same living" in the game.

[Sniq]

On another note, I think the developers should give the players more time to prepare for the change of honey's value. The "list of changes in 1.20" note was posted only about 3 days before the update. Not all players play daily. Players who did not log in few days before the update were not able to sell their honey in time. To be fair, these players should not be punished for what was perceived as a feature in the game. You can call it whatever you want but the the fact is that the price of honey had stayed 83s in the game since the introduction of breeding skill (> 6 months). The developers must have known that long time ago but chose to keep it unchanged until now.

Controlling the amount of gold generated in the game is necessary. A better solution than reducing the value of honey would be to reduce the number of honeys generated per cycle. But that's too late now.

Anyway, my point is that
(A) The developers should give players enough time (at least one week) to digest any change that may greatly affect the players.
(B) To be fair to those players who were not around between 29 Apr and 1 May, they should be compensated for the honey they had.


I am writing this because my friend was greatly affected by this "short notice of changes in v1.20" and I strongly think such as short notice was unfair to him. When he told me how upset and disappointed he was, and he was planning to quit, I can totally feel his pain. The least I can do is to ask the developers to be fair to players like him.

[guivou]

i think 33 pa would be a fine price (takes in account building barns and recruiting) but 1/10 is a non sense , it kills a job not very usefull

if you look on french forum, you will see that some players are very happy with the new price (not me) and have asked for the reduction !!!!!

now you can loot goldendart honey !!!!! the last avantage of beekeepers

[OlafvanderKart]

Thanks devs for badly over-reacting.

Veterans are throwing around hundreds and thousands of gold for items, while new players make 20s per 6 hours with a main, because they have yet to set up a concession (which isn't obviously an easy task early on with only a couple of companions) before they can gather anything, and then need level 30 to gather Bees.

I've been here about four months, not rushing things, and I can't raise bees yet. I have a barn, but not level 30. I was trying to get to bees, but now I don't really care that much. I do make and sell items regularly, and I trade a lot. I'm not hurting for Gold. But this game is discouraging to start.

And I'm REALLY tired of the veterans who have 8 alts and 64 comps, and more Gold and accumulated resources than they know what to do with, opining that newbies are overpowered. BS If you want a private game, fine. If you want new people to play, loosen up.

I get that you struggled hard to start. I've started many complex games. But everyone was more or less in the same boat, and discovering new things together. You did not have other players waving thousands of times as many resources as you have in your face every day. As I get my 20s every 6 hours catching animals in the city, others have gold tasks with no cooldown, and the chat is filled with offers of hundreds or thousands of gold for items. Motivating to continue playing? Not so much...

The game has evolved. There is no good reason to send the new players back to 20,000 B.C. to start. Maybe to 200 B.C. (or should that be BOE now?)

[Balok]

The devs may discover they've harmed their income stream. With honey income the price of blue crowns was skyrocketing. This encourages people to purchase blue crowns for resale. Which they must do with real money.

[Coastis]

....I've been here about four months, not rushing things, and I can't raise bees yet.

...As I get my 20s every 6 hours catching animals in the city...

This is going to sound harsh, but if you have been playing for 4 months and are still doing the animal catching task in the city then you are doing something seriously wrong and need to reassess your approach to the game.

I suggest starting with this thread viewtopic.php?t=242 which contains a list of many profitable means of making money. all of which that will actually contribute something to the game. If you can take the time to raise bees, then you can do any of the tasks listed in that thread.

Finally, the reality is this game is hard and takes time and effort, and that's something that a lot of us love about it.

[Balok]

That thread would be great advice if the market wasn't largely dead. Very little for sale, what is for sale is overpriced. Meanwhile, the offers folks make for things are way underpriced - I just saw someone offering ~11s for eliandel ore, which is very difficult to get for early and mid game players. Prior to the honey price nerf, blue crowns sold reliably, and that was about it.

[Coastis]

That thread would be great advice if the market wasn't largely dead. Very little for sale, what is for sale is overpriced. Meanwhile, the offers folks make for things are way underpriced - I just saw someone offering ~11s for eliandel ore, which is very difficult to get for early and mid game players. Prior to the honey price nerf, blue crowns sold reliably, and that was about it.

Sorry but that's just not true, regen pots, heal pots, blades and chisels all sell in huge quantities each day, as well as many resources.

The main reason that there is little for sale and what is is overpriced is due in part to people using honey as a crutch instead of actually crafting or gathering mats for sale. The biggest issue however is the smaller playerbase, something that will only be fixed by Virtsys advertising the game.

I will however agree that many of the offers are severely under priced, but you always have the option of not selling to an offer and instead listing it for sale at a fair price. I know personally that eliandel ore will sell very, very fast at 1.5g+ per ore so one would have to be crazy to sell it at ~11s.

[OlafvanderKart]

That thread would be great advice if the market wasn't largely dead. Very little for sale, what is for sale is overpriced. Meanwhile, the offers folks make for things are way underpriced - I just saw someone offering ~11s for eliandel ore, which is very difficult to get for early and mid game players. Prior to the honey price nerf, blue crowns sold reliably, and that was about it.

Sorry but that's just not true, regen pots, heal pots, blades and chisels all sell in huge quantities each day, as well as many resources.

The main reason that there is little for sale and what is is overpriced is due in part to people using honey as a crutch instead of actually crafting or gathering mats for sale. The biggest issue however is the smaller playerbase, something that will only be fixed by Virtsys advertising the game.

I will however agree that many of the offers are severely under priced, but you always have the option of not selling to an offer and instead listing it for sale at a fair price. I know personally that eliandel ore will sell very, very fast at 1.5g+ per ore so one would have to be crazy to sell it at ~11s.

Because what I want to do when I start a new game is make cheap stuff that takes up time, but doesn't help me advance, and then compete with the other new players to sell it as cheaply as possible to people who are too important or disinterested to do it themselves.

[Coastis]

That thread would be great advice if the market wasn't largely dead. Very little for sale, what is for sale is overpriced. Meanwhile, the offers folks make for things are way underpriced - I just saw someone offering ~11s for eliandel ore, which is very difficult to get for early and mid game players. Prior to the honey price nerf, blue crowns sold reliably, and that was about it.

Sorry but that's just not true, regen pots, heal pots, blades and chisels all sell in huge quantities each day, as well as many resources.

The main reason that there is little for sale and what is is overpriced is due in part to people using honey as a crutch instead of actually crafting or gathering mats for sale. The biggest issue however is the smaller playerbase, something that will only be fixed by Virtsys advertising the game.

I will however agree that many of the offers are severely under priced, but you always have the option of not selling to an offer and instead listing it for sale at a fair price. I know personally that eliandel ore will sell very, very fast at 1.5g+ per ore so one would have to be crazy to sell it at ~11s.

Because what I want to do when I start a new game is make cheap stuff that takes up time, but doesn't help me advance, and then compete with the other new players to sell it as cheaply as possible to people who are too important or disinterested to do it themselves.

So what you're saying is that you're too lazy to help yourself and too self entitled to actually work for something, got it! Thanks

[Woody]

Perhaps if you tried dabbing your eyes with a hankerchief and pulled yourself out of your pit of self sorry then you'd be able to see that people are trying to help you, but i guess that is too much to ask?

NAILED IT!!!

Sorry Coastis, I know you edited this... but you really didn't need to.

Come on guys... the challenge!!! what's the fun of everything being handed to you on a silver platter? These guys are trying to help. Stop being defensive / aggressive and listen to the guys who've ALL been in your situation yet survived and thrived. This is a friendly community full of people clambering over themselves to help others... and in my case tell me I'm wrong all the time

[Coastis]

Perhaps if you tried dabbing your eyes with a hankerchief and pulled yourself out of your pit of self sorry then you'd be able to see that people are trying to help you, but i guess that is too much to ask?

NAILED IT!!!

Sorry Coastis, I know you edited this... but you really didn't need to.

Come on guys... the challenge!!! what's the fun of everything being handed to you on a silver platter? These guys are trying to help. Stop being defensive / aggressive and listen to the guys who've ALL been in your situation yet survived and thrived. This is a friendly community full of people clambering over themselves to help others... and in my case tell me I'm wrong all the time

Haha no need to apologise, i stand by both versions of the post though perhaps the original was a little harsh

I have to agree though that this is by far the most helpfull gaming community i've came across, if someone is just going to throw that help back in our face then there is little more we can do for them

[Laerities/Volund]

Thanks for catching that before he edited it, I didn't want to miss it.

Thats exactly it Woody, these people haven't been around as long as we have. They haven't had the real challenges we had to face, but we made it through. We succeeded, and now? Now you get plenty of help if you are a respectable player.. Some even help if your not a nice person.

What I think many of these players are forgetting the availability of slave alts.. Your main character can do what he wants if your willing to put 10-20 minutes of time to make another character and keep him queued on pots. Then your main can use that gold to level his skills and progress.. This game is huge and there is so much to do with so little time, this is a key reason (im sure) virty's is ok with multiple character OR accounts.. If you plan on only 1 account/character that is a problem you are choosing to face.

There are players that I know who did the bees for gold and they STILL agree with the nerf.. Why? Because it generated gold AND it was a large amount.. Sure new players could do it.. But so could a guy with 15 alts.. Then what happens to the economy when that guys 15 alts stop producing items and start producing gold?

I do agree with Sniq and Coastis but I personally believe honey at maybe around 35s is fair, its not enough for big players to exploit (or I don't think so) but it can get a lower player a good start. Thanks to Sniq you can run the numbers of gold you could get per day if that was changed..

.. Now as woody said we are a friendly community.. Thats an understatement, we are one of the best communities. Now to repeat what I said in the first paragraph. Most players will help whether it be information or goods, I am personally a stickler on manners;If I do not see manners I will not like you. Many others don't care as much and will happily help you whether you are an self entitled (stole that from Coastis) 10 year old or a polite mature person.

Oh and I don't speak for everyone but if someone were to Mail me offering a trade or a negotiated price for something on the market that is welcomed. I will almost always charge more on the market than I would in person (well via mailing me).

Cheers,
Laerities

[Valerian]

Because what I want to do when I start a new game is make cheap stuff that takes up time, but doesn't help me advance, and then compete with the other new players to sell it as cheaply as possible to people who are too important or disinterested to do it themselves.

But farming honey, using possibly the most useless skill we have (Breeding) is somehow perfectly fine for you to "waste" your time on? How is farming bees any different than making blades or chisels in terms of advancement?

[OlafvanderKart]

Because what I want to do when I start a new game is make cheap stuff that takes up time, but doesn't help me advance, and then compete with the other new players to sell it as cheaply as possible to people who are too important or disinterested to do it themselves.

But farming honey, using possibly the most useless skill we have (Breeding) is somehow perfectly fine for you to "waste" your time on? How is farming bees any different than making blades or chisels in terms of advancement?

Because it's a big step up from 20s jobs with a 6-hour cooldown. It was the way that the experts told the newbies to make real money until last week. And I like doing off-beat things that make the game harder and more interesting to me. This game isn't really that hard, just very extensive and disorganized.

New players are trying to understand the game, raise all the stats they need to do anything, don't have a lot of time to schedule in the first place, and shouldn't *have to* spend their game time on cut-throat grubbing for pennies from the rich players just to get started.

It's the classic "I got mine" attitude. I don't hear about anyone giving back the "far too much" money they made from exploiting Bees "to re-balance the game". But some people are all for burning the bridges behind them.

[Coastis]

It's the classic "I got mine" attitude. I don't hear about anyone giving back the "far too much" money they made from exploiting Bees "to re-balance the game". But some people are all for burning the bridges behind them.

Well if you don't participate in the economy and produce items or materials for sale on the market then you're not going to hear about it are you?

I'm happy to admit i had a bee breeder, and i'm happy to admit that i spend hundreds and occasionally thousands per day on the market buying various consumables & materials, but i guess this doesn't fit in with your agenda does it?

But go ahead, keep blaming others for your own failings, i'm sure that attitude will get you far in life.

[Morlop]

I don't know about this *I got mine*.. I for one never used bees until late in the game when I needed Goldendart honey. Don't assume just because you made your money with that, everybody else did... This game isn't about producing stuff to sell it to NPC -> and except for honey I don't think any product was/is profitable that way. So it definetely was unbalanced if they ocercompensated...I don't know.

Another thing... I always was/am happy to haggle and trade with people and consider this to be a big part of the game
Usually you will quickly find regular customers who will be happy to buy your stuff.

You like doing off-beat things that make the game harder... -> why did you produce honey ?